eBay Seller’s comments to “Your Baby’s Ugly”

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By Jack D. Young

Proxiblog asked me to consider doing an article on “how eBay sellers react when we report their coins as fake? I know some take down the lots. Others don’t.” I was intrigued by the thought and decided to write the following!

When I explain a Bay listing is counterfeit sellers can react a number of ways–in disbelieve, argumentatively (Grandpa owned it), accepting and thankful, combative (I’ll meet you in a parking lot dude…) or just “crickets.”. In my experience the larger the seller the higher the probability of crickets.

So, moving on I will not lower our standards here and report the combative ones but several of recent experiences I have had of the other types of reactions.

Let’s start with an interesting Trade dollar. This example just caught my eye, and the images led me to believe the coin was not genuine. The images in the listing were not definitive, and I asked the seller for better ones. He agreed and that was all it took! The common reverse used for a family of fakes I nicknamed the “notched R.” I wrote an article on these published in a recent LSCC Gobrecht Journal. I actually own one returned to a seller by NGC as counterfeit, so well versed on these:

eBay recent listing

So, I asked the seller about the coin and that I had concerns about its authenticity. He responded that he looked up the cert and the “PCGS verification”.

I responded there were no images on the on-line cert, so no help there. I included images from my coin and article and that I was sure it was counterfeit.

And he responded with a thank you and that he would remove the listing immediately, which he did!

So, a win, except who knows were the coin ends up, as he responded he is taking it back to the previous seller… And then another listing and another message:

Seller actually had two bad Morgans in fake PCGS slabs listed:

As he stated in his message, he ended both!

So, two with likely the best results we could hope for. And then this one:

Another counterfeit coin in a counterfeit slab, this one gets a little complicated if you really evaluate this one properly.

First, the obverse barcode scans as a 1989 $10 gold eagle. Then, the images of the genuine example for the cert# on the PCGS site are a completely different coin. And third, the interesting twist for this one is fakes of this type typically have a reverse QR code that scans to the genuine PCGS cert site in CHINA (cnpcgs), BUT this one scans to pcgseurope! A separate article on this one in the works.

So, I notified the owner, but he is in denial, and his response and then silence:

Silent until this😎:

So, good luck to all eBayer’s with that one!

And now the crickets; my friend Jack Riley posted the next example in our Face Book group:

Pretty bad counterfeit in a counterfeit slab again, the surprise was it is a large well respected Bay coin seller. Several of us sent messages to the seller with no response, so I took a risk and purchased it with the intention of asking for a return for it being a counterfeit.

Refund granted, never heard from the seller…

And eBay removed the listing:

Shortly thereafter my eBay account was permanently suspended.

If you like posts like this, you can read more articles on counterfeit coins by Jack D. Young, Jack Riley and Michael Bugeja at this URL. Also, please subscribe so you can get our weekly newsletter and be informed whenever there is a new article or column.

Proxiblog also has thousands of followers on Facebook Coin Groups, YouTube and other venues. To get the latest discussion and commentary, be sure to friend us by clicking here.

You can find more information about errors and varieties as well as buying and bidding on coins in Coin News Updated: The Essential Guide to Online Bidding. Please consider purchasing the work for yourself or a friend, as it underwrites this hobbyist website. Thank you.

Fake Eisenhower Dollars

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By Jack Riley

As most collectors know, Chinese counterfeits have flooded the market. Often many buyers are “burned” on key date and semi key date coins of many series. We have stressed that nothing is safe and that includes Eisenhower Dollars! These are readily available at banks for face value and yet here we have counterfeits.

Diving straight into repeating markers of these two “coins,” a 1971-P and 1977-P show commonalities between the two. Both share matching obverses and reverses indicated in Red.

Obverse markers:

  • Diagonal depression of L
  • Depression in front of the eye

Reverse markers:

  • Raised lump below A1
  • Indent below OF
  • Line through C

China produces counterfeits of common coins like the Eisenhower dollar if a small profit can be made. These scammers may not be expert numismatists; but they are professional marketers who know about profit margins. Their profits expand with bulk production, flooding eBay and Facebook with fakes. China knows the coin collectors will just assume that low-value common coins like Ike dollars are genuine.

They are polluting the hobby.

If you suspect that one of your coins might be fake, see “Detecting Counterfeits” for methods.

If you like posts like this, you can read more articles on counterfeit coins by Jack D. Young, Jack Riley and Michael Bugeja at this URL. Also, please subscribe so you can get our weekly newsletter and be informed whenever there is a new article or column.

Proxiblog also has thousands of followers on Facebook Coin Groups, YouTube and other venues. To get the latest discussion and commentary, be sure to friend us by clicking here.

You can find more information about errors and varieties as well as buying and bidding on coins in Coin News Updated: The Essential Guide to Online Bidding. Please consider purchasing the work for yourself or a friend, as it underwrites this hobbyist website. Thank you.

VIDEO: 3 Types of Doubling

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If you want a quick refresher of the major types of doubling–hub, machine and die deterioration–view this video. It will help you identify those types with audio explanations by Michael Bugeja.

Click here for an article on the 5 types of doubling.

Also, Proxiblog has assembled some 50 videos on this site and YouTube. Click the photo below to see them.

If you like posts like this, subscribe so you can be informed whenever there is a new article or column.

Proxiblog also has thousands of followers on Facebook Coin Groups, YouTube and other social media. To get the latest discussion and commentary, be sure to friend us by clicking here.

You can find more information about types, varieties, errors, grading, bidding and buying in Coin News Updated: The Essential Guide to Online Bidding. Please consider buying or gifting the work for a friend, as it underwrites this hobbyist blog. Thank you.

Our Half-Million Milestone!

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Proxiblog wishes to thank the thousands of subscribers, followers and Facebook and YouTube coin group members for helping our site reach a half million hits in the past six months. A special thanks to our writers Jack Young, Jack Riley, Susan Blumlein Amodeo and John Lorenzo as well as Facebook coin group moderators who welcome our articles and posts.

3 Types of Doubling

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With the popularity of coin microscopes, hobbyists are finding all manner of doubled dies, but only one really is valuable. Nevertheless, it is important to identify the three main types so that you can tell whether you have a valuable or face value coin.

Types of doubling covered in this article:

  • Hub doubling.
  • Machine doubling.
  • Die deterioration doubling.

By becoming familiar with the various types of doubling, you not only will be able to increase your knowledge of numismatics but also can help others with their finds.

Hub Doubling

This is the most important kind of doubling, always valuable because most kinds have a decent spread of letters, numbers and devices. You usually do not need a microscope. You can see these with a loupe or naked eye.

This type of doubling is produced by a misaligned hub that engraves the defect directly into the working die, meaning the image will be evident in every coin struck by that working die. That is why the result is called a variety, and not an error.

Here is the most famous doubled die resulting from a misaligned working die:

Some 40,000 of the 1955 DDO were initially struck, with about half of the run caught and destroyed, leaving about 24,000 that made it into circulation.

The key distinction of hub doubling is separated, raised and rounded doubling. Older coins typically have this kind of doubling. In the 1990s, the US Mint introduced what is called a Single Squeeze Process, reducing the number of doubled dies with less of a spread and with doubling occurring more toward the middle of the coin.

If you want to learn more about hub doubling and the minting process, see “How Does Hub Doubling Happen.”

Machine Doubling

Machine doubling occurs when the die moves slightly during the striking process, distinguishing it from hub doubling, which is associated with the working die.

Because machine doubling happens during a strike, its “double” image is flat and shelf-like and not raised enveloping the letter or number like hub doubling,

Compare the two in this comparison image:

Machine doubling, which often requires a microscope to see, is common because the Mint uses extraordinarily high-speed machinery whose vibration often causes the working die to bounce on impact.

Machine doubling typically is caused by a single strike, meaning not all coins of that run will have the same impression, as happens with hub doubling. That is why machine doubling is a mechanical error and not a variety.

It also has no collector value.

Die Deterioration Doubling (DDD)

Like any manufacturing facility, the US Mint uses its equipment on a cost-saving basis, meaning working dies are used until they begin to deteriorate. The striking process is high-speed and powerful. When a die is overused, some of the lettering, numbering or devices begin to erode slightly with metal flows entering the degraded areas.

That’s why die deterioration doubling is common, without value, even though at times this mechanical error looks stretched rather than flat. This is how you distinguish between machine doubling and DDD. (Also, die deterioration appears to be a weak strike.)

When the US Mint started producing copper-plated zinc coins with pressure to produce billions of them each year, mint operators over-extended the lives of working dies, producing millions of DDDs.

There are two other types of doubling, “Split Plate Doubling” and “Reduction Lathe Doubling.” The former also is associated with copper-plated zinc cents with the plating eroding in what looks like doubling, especially on mintmarks that people confuse with repunched mintmarks (RPMs).

The final type is “Reduction Lathe Doubling,” really a production issue that happens when a design is transferred to a master hub by a lathe vibrating slightly. The doubling is subtle and again, not valuable. It looks like machine doubling and really is just a category of it.

If you would like to learn more about the minting process, click here.

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Proxiblog also has thousands of followers on Facebook Coin Groups and across social media. To get the latest discussion and commentary, be sure to friend us by clicking here.

You can find more information about types, varieties, errors, grading, bidding and buying in Coin News Updated: The Essential Guide to Online Bidding. Please consider buying or gifting the work for a friend, as it underwrites this hobbyist blog. Thank you.

Counterfeit 1881-S Morgan Dollars

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A recent eBay listing of a counterfeit 1909-S VDB cent sparked me to look at the rest of this particular seller’s offerings. They had nearly half of a dozen 1881-S Morgan Dollars along with a few counterfeits of other series. The 1881-S is a relatively common coin and easily found in high mint state grades; one wouldn’t expect to stumble across a counterfeit. The first image is of one of the represented coins.

A comparison of three of the coins tells the tale. Given the scratches, dings and random “circulation” marks, this isn’t a mix up of images. There are three separate coins.

Anyone who does a lot of variety attributions of Morgan Dollars will know that 1881-S is a difficult year to attribute and generally won’t be done just by a glance like some dates. All examples from this eBay seller exhibit the same repeated contact marks.

Notable obverse marks:

  • Line through S
  • Surface scratch left of U
  • Small surface mark between right star 5 and 6

Notable reverse marks:

  • Small scratch below the base of S
  • Field dot between U-N and above U
  • Minute surface flaws between E-D

If you like posts like this, you can read more articles on counterfeit coins by Jack D. Young, Jack Riley and Michael Bugeja at this URL. Also, please subscribe so you can get our weekly newsletter and be informed whenever there is a new article or column.

Proxiblog also has thousands of followers on Facebook Coin Groups, YouTube and other venues. To get the latest discussion and commentary, be sure to friend us by clicking here.

You can find more information about errors and varieties as well as buying and bidding on coins in Coin News Updated: The Essential Guide to Online Bidding. Please consider purchasing the work for yourself or a friend, as it underwrites this hobbyist website. Thank you.

Difference between dryer and spooned coins

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Everyday on Facebook coin groups, Reddit and eBay, dryer and spooned coins appear with their owners believing they have found valuable errors. Let’s look closely at both examples of post mint damage in this article so you can identify what you have if you found examples in pocket change (literally) and rolls.

Also, this article showcases examples of sellers claiming dryer and spooned coins are valuable errors. They are not. They have no collector value.

Dryer Coin

A coin left in a home dryer or, more probably, a commercial dryer at a laundromat is known in numismatics as a “dryer coin,” dramatically changing dimensions so that it appears vastly different than the denomination.

The coin typically remains in a person’s pocket after being washed and tumbled and then falls out of the clothing and is exposed to high heat in a dryer. Sometimes it falls into the gap between the rotating inner drum and the stationary outer frame of a commercial dryer where it suffers even more damage due to grinding, friction and heat.

If you put the phrase “dryer coin” into a search engine, you get dozens of examples on Facebook and Reddit.

Dryer coins undergo these transformations: a flattening and widening of the edge, losing any reeding in the process. The heat pushes from the center outward resulting in a state that often resembles a bicycle tire with enhanced rim. The diameter becomes smaller.

Also, the result is a “mushy” discolored surface with devices literally melting away, as in the above coin. That is not a grease strike. It is a cent that was exposed to high heat in a commercial dryer. Compare:

It is important to distinguish between dryer coins and spooned ones. While both are considered damage, there are distinct differences.

Spooned

A spooned coin often looks like a dryer coin. In this case, however, the edge of a coin is intentionally hammered or pressed with the back of a spoon, eventually flattening and widening it.

The process is used to make a coin ring, as in this example:

The process of tooling the coin varies from a kitchen spoon to a handy person’s tool box and machinery. Basically, the coin is secured on a hard surface so that the person can use the back of a metal spoon, tapping, rotating and rubbing the coin over a long period (we’re talking days or even weeks).

Eventually the coin starts to mushroom toward the edge, developing an extended ring-like edge as in the above coin. At that point what remains of the coin is punched or drilled out, leaving the ring, which eventually is polished.

Some finished rings are lovely, as in this example:

Of course the finished ring looks nothing like a dryer coin. The confusion happens when the person abandons the spooning process and leaves the coin with a large ring-like edge but with the remaining devices of the coin still visible without the mushy appearance of a dryer coin.

That’s how you tell the difference between a spooned and dryer coin. Compare:

As you might expect, unknowledgeable people sell dryer and half-spooned coins as valuable error. Here’s an example of a dryer coin offered for $150.

Here’s an example of a spooned quarter misidentified as an error for $500.

Proxiblog has the largest illustrated glossary on the web. Click here. You can compare dryer and spooned coins to sunken dies and heat damage. Study all the examples so that you, too, can become a coin expert.

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Proxiblog also has thousands of followers on Facebook Coin Groups, YouTube and social media. To get the latest discussion and commentary, be sure to friend us by clicking here.

You can find more information about types, varieties, errors, grading, bidding and buying in Coin News Updated: The Essential Guide to Online Bidding. Please consider buying or gifting the work for a friend, as it underwrites this hobbyist blog. Thank you.

Types of Toned Coins

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There are various patterns of toned coins ranging from rainbow to terminal. Here are the major ones. You can use these terms when selling or sharing your coins with others.

Rainbow

Rainbow colors in nature are Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo and Violet. These can be found on coins, as in this example from one of my former coins sold on GreatCollections:

Monster

This term is often misused. Coins that are true “monsters” have exceptionally vibrant, intense, and often, high-value colorful toning, frequently associated with Morgan dollars. Again, from one of my former coins:

Target (Bull’s Eye)

Concentric rings of color, often developing from the outside rim inward. This was one of my favorites and difficult to sell:

Pastel

These coins exhibit soft, light and delicate colors, as in this former coin I owned, also sold on GreatCollections:

Natural/Skin

This refers to natural, undisturbed patina that has developed over a long period. Again, a former coin:

Cabinet

Deep, attractive, often golden or brown toning that develops slowly over many years of storage in a felt-lined cabinet. This coin actually toned over decades in such a cabinet, with the coin saved after JFK’s passing.

Crescent

Toning that appears as a crescent moon shape on a portion of the coin, often caused by how it sat in a holder or album. It was difficult for me to sell this one:

Textile

A rare sought-after pattern that mimics the texture of the canvas mint bag in which the coin was stored. Again, one of my former coins:

Mottled/Splotchy

Uneven and spotty toning as in this former coin of mine:

Taped

Coins originally taped to an album that may develop unique toning where the tape once was, as in this formerly owned coin:

Corrugated Cardboard

These are extremely rare and coveted coins because they often take on the colors of the American flag. I mourned selling this one:

Black/Terminal

Advanced oxidation that can hide coin details, often reducing desirability. You can find plenty of these once beautifully toned American Silver Eagles that crossed over from old green PCI holders to PCGS, with the Gold Shield interacting again with the toning until it goes terminal. You can see that with crossed over coins that had TrueView:

If you like posts like this, subscribe so you can be informed whenever there is a new article or column.

Proxiblog also has thousands of followers on Facebook Coin Groups and other social media. To get the latest discussion and commentary, be sure to friend us by clicking here.

You can find more information about types, varieties, errors, grading, bidding and buying in Coin News Updated: The Essential Guide to Online Bidding. Please consider buying or gifting the work for a friend, as it underwrites this hobbyist blog. Thank you.

Family of “Fugazi” Lincoln Cents

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By Jack Riley

Fugazi is an Italian slang term meaning “fake” or “bogus,”  referring to a counterfeit object, a sham, or a fraudulent person. People who counterfeit coins are shams and frauds.

We “out” them on Proxiblog.

Prompting this article is a 1914-D cent that a friend shared in a large Facebook coin group. After I explained that this was not genuine, I received additional closeup images for analysis.

A closeup image of the date and mintmark shows this coin is not a genuine 1914-D. The shape and placement of the mintmark is incorrect. This, however, is not the case of an altered date or an added mintmark; the entire coin is counterfeit.

This 1931-S had surfaced on eBay within the last few months. Comparing both reverses it is clear these were produced from the same makers and related to a large “family” of counterfeits. I’m calling this family “Notched O.” More on that momentarily.

The image quality of the 1931-S is subpar, leaving blurry images, yet enough to discern the repeating marks.

“Common marks” highlighted in Red:

  • Depression in O
  • Dent in “N” as well as the “O” in the word OF
  • Small indent of the “E”

At this writing I’ve only seen this on both 1914-D and 1931-S. Likely this exists on many key and semi key dates as well.

To check if your coin may belong to this “fugazi” (i.e. “fake”), look for those common marks highlighted above in red.

If you like posts like this, you can read more articles on counterfeit coins by Jack D. Young, Jack Riley and Michael Bugeja at this URL. Also, please subscribe so you can get our weekly newsletter and be informed whenever there is a new article or column.

Proxiblog also has thousands of followers on Facebook Coin Groups, YouTube and other venues. To get the latest discussion and commentary, be sure to friend us by clicking here.

You can find more information about errors and varieties as well as buying and bidding on coins in Coin News Updated: The Essential Guide to Online Bidding. Please consider purchasing the work for yourself or a friend, as it underwrites this hobbyist website. Thank you.

 

Tidy House and American Savings Toners

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If you are in the market for fabulous toned coins, think about Tidy House and American Savings lots whose cardboard produces rainbow patinas.

But there are pitfalls, too. Unscrupulous sellers keep the toned coins and swap lesser or doctored coins.

This article showcases the type of toning you might find with original offerings.

Tidy House Dollars

“Tidy House dollars” are Morgans used in a promotional campaign by the Tidy House Products Company, a cleaning products company, in the 1960s. 

The company reportedly acquired a large number of common-date Morgan silver dollars, mostly from the New Orleans (O) mint from the 1880s, from a U.S. Treasury hoard. These coins were sealed in a cardboard holder with an advertising description. 

Toning is the main reason “Tidy House dollars” are collected. Coins in the cardboard develop rainbow patinas, as in this example from my collection:

I sent to PCGS and got this grade and TrueView:

But what to do with the now-empty Tidy House holder? You should save the holder after you slab your coin and then, when ready to sell it, show if as this seller did on eBay:

Don’t be fooled by Tidy House holders with coins having no patina. Those probably have been swapped out. You want to buy original ones with rainbows. Otherwise, let the lot go.

And keep in mind that Tidy House only holdered Morgans, not Peace dollars, as in this artificially toned one that I wrote about at Coin World.

In addition to Morgan dollars, Tidy House also holdered 1964 JFK Half Dollars. Those, too, usually have magnificent toning. Here’s an example from one of my Tidy House purchases:

Here’s an offering with all the paperwork and obviously swapped out coins.

American Savings Dollars

American Savings and Loan” banks, especially in Texas, also ran promotions using silver dollars, especially 1979-S Morgans, from a bank bag purchased from the Mint in the 1960s. These have exceptional toning.

I purchased this one in 2022:

Here’s how it graded:

I use the TrueView for my Proxiblog logo.

The empty holder is in my office drawer.

As with the Tidy House dollar, do not purchase any American Savings dollar that lacks toning or has ugly or doctored patina. If the coin exhibits wear, it didn’t come from the bank bag, as this coin, which is AU and has been cleaned and retoned:

If you like posts like this, subscribe so you can be informed whenever there is a new article or column.

Proxiblog also has thousands of followers on Facebook Coin Groups and other social media. To get the latest discussion and commentary, be sure to friend us by clicking here.

You can find more information about types, varieties, errors, grading, bidding and buying in Coin News Updated: The Essential Guide to Online Bidding. Please consider buying or gifting the work for a friend, as it underwrites this hobbyist blog. Thank you.